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Josh Schumacher (00:00):
The employee benefits industry has been stuck in a cycle that keeps costs rising and plan members underserved, but there’s a better way forward and it starts here. Welcome to Break. The. Cycle..
(00:13):
Welcome back to Break. The. Cycle.. I’m joined today by John Gause, the president and CEO of Apex Benefits Group. And today we’re going to be talking about three interconnected themes. First, the shifts in the benefits industry and why he founded Apex and grew it to where it is today. Two, how we currently evaluate broker performance and ROI and why that maybe needs to change. And then third and most importantly, what steps you can take to start taking a different approach and actually breaking the cycle under performance and increasing trends year after year. John, welcome to the show.
John Gause (00:46):
Thanks, Josh. Great to be here.
Josh Schumacher (00:49):
All right. So John, last month you celebrated 23 years since founding Apex Benefits Group, but you’ve been in the industry a lot longer than 23 years. So can you tell me a little bit about that journey and how you got to be here in the seat today?
John Gause (01:00):
So yeah, it was 2003, May of 2003 that I launched Apex. But really the journey kind of began in some respects in college where I decided to major in economics and finance and got out of school looking for a job went down to American United Life to interview in their securities department and their investment department. And ultimately I didn’t get that job, but they offered me a job as a group underwriter and that’s kind of how I fell into the group insurance business.
Josh Schumacher (01:38):
Yeah. So you got into the group insurance business, we’re working with these firms. What was the shift that made you go, I want to start something on my own, start Apex?
John Gause (01:48):
I went to work for a national consulting firm. This was back in the, frankly, the late 80s and healthcare costs were a lot lower than they are today and benefits were called a side business, one line of coverage or whatever that employers were buying. And so it just wasn’t a whole lot of focus on it. And so I left there and went to a regional property casualty firm that wanted to get into the benefits business. So it gave me an opportunity to kind of work and effectively start their benefits practice. I did that really for a number of years. Again, we were primarily property casualty until I came along and then our benefits group was actually growing at the fastest rate. And after a number of years, I just really decided that in order to really provide the value and provide what we really needed, I was probably going to need to leave there and start something that was benefits focused entirely.
(02:49):
And effectively, that’s kind of what I did.
Josh Schumacher (02:52):
Talk to me about how you settled maybe on the name Apex, why you decided to launch it then. And you kind of hit on this already of, hey, what were you noticing in the industry that was the reason for needing to start something that was entirely focused on benefits?
John Gause (03:07):
There was a lot of things that were going on, but even from the 80s to the early 2000s, a lot was changing and a lot had changed in the healthcare. But one of the new things even back then was wellness was kind of people were starting to pay attention to what’s driving healthcare cost and lifestyle decisions were really driving a lot of those costs. And so there was a lot of discussion at the time about wellness and employers investing in wellness and spending some money on that and trying to get their populations healthier so they’d have ultimately less than claims and they’d have a healthier workforce. And that was a area that really most insurance brokers, healthcare brokers, et cetera, didn’t have a whole lot of background in it as the wellness side of it. And so I was able to convince my former employer to bring somebody on, but it was just a tough uphill battle.
(04:08):
And so that was the first thing that I was thinking of. But then there was the numbers, the analytics, and a lot of the other things that frankly, I wasn’t necessarily the best suited to perform that we really needed help with. And stuff was getting more expensive and we needed more resources and I just didn’t have the latitude to go out and bring those people on.
Josh Schumacher (04:31):
And so building your own thing enabled you to go out and get the people that you needed to address the problems.
John Gause (04:36):
Yeah. I figured if I went out on the benefits side, most of the stuff that I was bringing in the door at my previous employer, I was driving those sales anyway. Oftentimes they were spending more on the healthcare than they were on the property casualty. So I really, when I sat down with the owner of the former firm, I just told them, I said, “I kind of want to build what you have, but I want to just work in the benefits area.” So I left after my notice and really just launched it. And I really wasn’t sure if I’d ever get in the property casualty business or the retirement business or any of that, but here we are 23 years later and there’s just been enough to do where we’ve not made the decision to do it and really there’s just healthcare costs have continued to go up.
(05:25):
What’s in employer’s plates is continue to get, it’s more expensive and there were a lot more things that we needed to do. So in hindsight, being able to really control that and drive business and bring business on the books and then reinvest that revenue into new resources was probably one of the best things I could have done. And having the autonomy to be able to do that was good. Relative to my name, it’s kind of a funny story. I always thought if I was going to start a business, I wanted the first letter to be A, because I wanted to be, this will date me a little bit, but what was to be the first in the white pages or yellow pages, right? And so it was going to be A, and I didn’t think ACME insurance agency made a lot of sense. I thought about something I had done when I was actually at the national firm, which was ANA at the time.
(06:20):
It’s Aon Now and that was called Achieving Professional Excellence. And the acronym for that was APEX. And then the other thoughts on APEX was APEX is the top. It’s the best. And given the fact that one of my goals was to really raise the bar in our area in the benefit services, I thought APEX was a good name. It started with an A. And the other thing, I didn’t want it to be Goss & Associates or Goss Benefits Agency because I had a dream that I wanted to be bigger and I wanted to bring other people on and I didn’t want people to think they’re working for … It was just going to be Gause. I really had grander plans.
Josh Schumacher (07:04):
I think to a degree we can say those it’s certainly bigger than maybe you imagined it at the time. So talk to me a litle bit about, you mentioned already some of those shifts in the industry and I’m sure even since 2003, we’re seeing an explosion of healthcare costs still. Pharmacy comes to mind as we hear all these new drugs releasing as something that’s driving costs for employers. So talk to me about, again, you mentioned that independence to be able to equip your team, get the right resources in the right places. How does Apex look today and how is that maybe different from some of the other brokers as you’ve tried to build and achieve and kind of set yourself apart from other players in this industry? What did that journey look like?
John Gause (07:41):
So again, as things have gotten more expensive and more complicated and more complex, there’ve been a lot more things that are important as I’ve had to do to deal with sometimes their second, third, largest expense and it’s clearly the fastest growing probably line item. But what’s changed is pharmacy costs were like five, 6% of healthcare cost, even when I started in 2003. And so trying to get a handle on that, today they’re anywhere from 18 to 30%. If you start throwing infusion therapy in, which are paid under the medical, there are some employers that are at 40, 50% of healthcare spend is on pharmacy now. So that was one area. The other is given my background as an underwriter, it really positioned me well and differently than a lot of my competitors in terms of I understood how the costs were built. From an underwriting perspective, I understood reserves and curve but not reported.
(08:45):
I understood the expense formulas. I understood self-funding. As time went on, I gravitated more and more towards, I’ll call them more types of complex arrangements such as self-funded or minimum premium or those types of things. For employers, there’s value in self-funding, but the value’s a lot better if you kind of know what’s coming. If you’re an employer and you’re building manufacturing something, that’s your business. That’s what you know about. That’s typically why you started. You don’t have an expertise in running a health insurance company, you need strong expertise and you need someone who can help you do that. So the reports that we used to typically get from insurance companies, third party administrators, et cetera, they were fine if you wanted a rear view mirror, but most of my clients, they wanted a dashboard. They really needed a dashboard. They needed to know what the costs were going to be in the future so they could predict what the costs were going to be.
(09:44):
We needed to be able to look and predict what those numbers were looking like. And people were like, “Well, claims are claims and the only way we can impact that is to hire healthier people or to get rid of people before we start having claims.” Well, you can’t do that. You’re going to have claims and people are going to develop them. Some of them are younger. Obviously the older you get, the more claims someone has, but understanding what those risk characteristics are makes a big difference and looking at the claims data. So when I approached Anthem and UnitedHealthcare, which are the really two big players in Indiana about this, I just said, “Look, I appreciate your reporting, but what we really need is we need the raw claims data, basically look at the data and try to project forward what the future looks like. ” Employers needed something better than a rear view mirror.
(10:31):
They needed a dashboard. And so I approached Rob Helman, the president of Anthem. I still remember the meeting and I just said, “Rob, I appreciate all the reporting that you’ve given us, but what we’d really need is we just want your raw claims data. What we’re going to do with it is we’re basically willing to analyze it and try to project what it looks to be the future.” And he agreed and it was like, “Well, we can do a pilot for our groups over 200 employees.” And so that’s kind of where we started. I then approached Dan Kranovich over at UnitedHealthcare and I had the same conversation and next thing we know we are getting monthly downloads of claims data for our clients and we were able to take that information and to project it forward. And the way we were able to do that, we initially hired an actuary who went through it on our own and she actually, she used to work for Franthem and we looked at that and that we were able to develop some reports and that became fairly cumbersome.
(11:32):
We searched for a predictive modeling software and we did an RFP and we went out and looked for that. We ultimately brought on a firm and so we were getting the data monthly and then we were taking that information and running it through the predictive modeling software and that was really pretty cool. It would literally look at every claim someone had and the diagnoses codes and then project what the prognosis was and what they were like, whether it was an ongoing claim, not an ongoing claim. If so, how big can the claim get? As we did that, that required again, more resources, different disciplines. When you start looking at actual diagnoses codes and stuff like that, that’s really nothing an underwriter, which is who I was at the heart, could help with. So we had to bring other people on. In addition to financial analysts, actuaries, now we needed something else and really we needed clinicians.
(12:27):
We need somebody who could understand this stuff and could look at a condition and think, “Wow, this is the first of something pretty bad.” Or it could be, “Wow, this is probably going to be over.” And that would really help us in the projections.
Josh Schumacher (12:40):
I heard a lot in there and I feel like the central theme to me is investing in capabilities. So from the initial push for wellness that employers saw, hiring a team of wellness specialists to kind of really address that pharmacy costs on the rise, building capabilities to address that, lack of future vision, kind of pioneering some reporting, pioneering the right clinicians on your team. I think as we look around at the industry, more and more brokers are doing that. So I think I want to kind of transition to the second theme that we kind of wanted to hit on today, which is in the evaluation process of which brokers should I choose. We were talking a little bit earlier this week and you mentioned just that maybe we aren’t evaluating the broker relationship the right way. So can you give me a little bit of insight as to how you think we’re currently evaluating the choice of broker and what you think should be done differently?
John Gause (13:32):
Yeah, I will. I’m going to back up for a second though, because you mentioned independence earlier and you mentioned how we do it. The first thing is I was able to make the decisions and that’s still the case today. We are independent. I don’t have to meet with investors. We’re not a publicly traded company, so I don’t have quarterly calls and those types of things. So we can really invest in really kind of where I see the future and I can look at years out certainly the next year versus the next quarter. I really had the latitude to make some of those investments, but I think we were ahead of the curve a little bit and you’re right. I think a lot of the other firms started saying what we’re doing and really successful firms we’re doing across the country and they started doing some of the same stuff.
(14:16):
But we kind of went kind of keeping with our theme that I’ve been, I tell people a lot, and you’ve heard this too, is what we’re doing today for our customers is not going to be good enough for tomorrow and that’s not new and that’s how we feel right now. And I’m really excited about some stuff that we’ve got coming down the pike even. But as a result of that, we’ve kind of been able to stay ahead of things. So initially it was, all right, it’s one thing to be self-funded and be able to predict the future, but if I’m an employer, that’s all great, but if I don’t like the future, what can you do about it? So then we had to move to, well, we’re going to predict the future, but then we got to change the future. I mean, if you put it in real layman’s terms, that’s what we got to do.
(15:03):
And if we don’t do anything else, your healthcare trend’s going to be eight or 9% or 7%, that’s what your interest is going to be. But if we can actually intervene and potentially change some of those claim patterns or get someone healthier or whatever there is, if there’s some intervention we can have, then we can start to change what the future looks like, not only from a financial standpoint, but also from employees health standpoints or their family members.
Josh Schumacher (15:32):
No, I think that’s a good point. And I think it’s a perfect transition. You said you were a finance guy. Let’s talk finances, right? Let’s talk about the financial impact of some of those choices and just as people evaluate that broker relationship and evaluate, look, you’re saying you can save our trend won’t be 8% if you work with Apex, that’s kind of what the industry bears. Talk to me a little bit about if you were an employer, if you’re sitting in that seat, how you would evaluate different brokers and there’s been a lot of discussion in this industry around fees and how we determine how brokers should get paid. There’s so many people with their hands in the pot of money in this healthcare industry. So talk to me a little bit about your perspective on this belief that brokers have similar capabilities and people evaluating the fees and trying to determine how to make a good decision.
John Gause (16:19):
Well, employers are right to really be concerned about all the different hands in the pot. I mean, but really if you think about it, it’s 85% of the cost. Even if you’ve got over 50 employees, your claims are driving to some extent what your increase looks like, whether you’re fully insured or self-funded. So understanding, I think if you start with the fact that 85% of your cost are claims, you could get hung up on what your administrative costs are going to be or what your reinsurance costs are going to be or what your broker fees are going to be, but the real cost is on claims. So if you can find someone who can actually impact claims cost, change that future, you’re going to be far ahead. I think one of the issues is employers kind of feel like that maybe a lot of different brokers that are out there are similar in terms of they think our claims are going to be their claims and nothing’s going to change there so they focus on the 15% or actually more so sometimes they focus just on your broker fees themselves.
(17:25):
Oftentimes an employer has no idea what their broker’s making. And the first thing an employer should be doing is understanding what those costs are. But then what’s more important than that is, what’s the return on investment for those costs? What are they getting out of it? What’s their increase been? On the finance side, I’m conservative. I look at a lot of things from a financial lens. And so when I started thinking about how does Apex bring value to employers, I naturally go to the financial end of it. Although not to the detriment of servicing and making sure employees’ claims are handled, making sure that we’re communicating and we’re having enrollment meetings and those types of things. But if all you’re doing for an employer today as a broker or consultant is going out and getting quotes and helping with enrollment meetings and picking up the phone when an employee has a question, in my mind you’re really falling short.
(18:22):
It kind of falls in line with what I’ve always thought about and that’s the financial end of it. How do we bring value? We’ve got to impact the finance side of things.
Josh Schumacher (18:31):
So let’s talk numbers because you’re a finance guy and I think when an employer’s sitting there and they’re trying to decide between two brokers who have different fees, how would you go about advising them to make that calculation of who’s going to drive the most ROI?
John Gause (18:46):
If I were an employer, just like they do a lot of their other vendors, when they’re looking at what they’re going to pay, they need to be looking at what they’re going to get, but they need to include what type of increases they’re going to get. They should not be letting their consultant or broker off the hook and just saying, “Well, all claims go up 8% a year. We got our people. It’s not my broker’s fault that someone had cancer or not my broker’s fault that someone had a premature baby or they can’t really control that. ” I don’t agree with that. I mean, certainly their employee population is going to have claims, but I’d want to know what are you doing about it? How are you helping me? And if broker A is charging, if their cost is 1% of your healthcare cost and broker B is one and a half percent, but broker A is just going to kind of let things go and shop my insurance and negotiate my fixed costs, which are only 15% really well, but not doing anything on the claims or do very little and broker B is going to focus on the entire amount.
(19:53):
They’re going to negotiate really hard. They’re going to give me good fixed cost fees, but more importantly, they’re going to focus on that 85% and they’re actually going to drop those claim costs down. If I can get that and my trend’s running normal trends at seven or 8%, if I can get someone who can beat that by a couple percent, I’m not too worried about that half percent. It doesn’t make a difference. So I think they’ve got to factor in what are you ultimately getting and is my consultant or broker helping me with that?
Josh Schumacher (20:25):
So I think fundamentally that makes sense. I think every leader would want their consulting relationships to drive ROI. So can you tell me a little bit about, I think everyone would probably state that they can achieve those savings numbers, that they’re going to save you money. Everyone’s going to say, “Hey, this is our fee and we’re going to save you money for that fee. We’re capable of doing that. ” Can you tell me a little bit about how to go beyond that ROI to how to actually evaluate whether they have the resources and the capabilities and house to deliver on what they say?
John Gause (20:59):
One thing our industry is not short on is good salespeople. Yeah, everybody’s going to say that. People are going to say it can save you a bunch of money in your pharmacy cost. Their average cost is this. And kind of before I go to what you really need to be able to get there, I’ll just tell you my story, Josh, is as you know, we have invested for years in clinicians, pharmacists, data scientists, actuaries, et cetera. I knew one thing I knew how much we were spending on trying to impact our clients’ claims. I would see anecdotally, I would see case studies, but I really didn’t know, are we really bending the trend? And I thought, well, I’m almost afraid to look, but I was like, we need to look. And I’ve got a whole team of financial analysts and we can do this. We can look at our book of business and we can look at how we’re doing.
(21:53):
And what I’d hoped to see certainly was a trend number for our book of business that was lower than what insurance companies were using or what you see in the industry. And I thought, well, if we’re not, I probably don’t need a lot of these really expensive employees. We can change that up a little bit. But what I found was not only were we bending the trend, but we were bending it by a lot. Initially we ran a three-year study. We started that in, I think we started that in 21 and then we looked at that period of time and what I found was over the three-year period, we looked at our entire book of business and we’ve got some clients that did not perform very well. We had a lot of clients that performed really well. What I noticed and what was pretty wild was that our trend number was actually close to zero and I’m looking at the book of overall the industry at being at six, 7% and I thought, can this be?
(22:53):
So I challenged our team. Well, we did it again the next year and I saw basically similar results. So we’ve continued to do it. Now we’re going back five years. We actually just recently did a six year study. We don’t cherry pick, we don’t throw anybody out. We have a set criteria who’s included in the group that we look at. It’s all of our clients that meet a criteria of how long if they’ve been with us a couple of years, because it does take us some time to get into the claims and start to modify and change those claim trend numbers. But we look at all that and what we found was even over the past six years, our number is 2.2%. And I know for a fact that what we’re getting from insurance companies, we looked at that actually on our self-funded book and that number was 2.2% average claim increase over the past six years.
(23:48):
And then I looked at it on our fully insured book because I thought, well, I mean, clearly we don’t have a lot of the levers that we were able to use innovative RX strategies on pharmacy costs. We’re able to use Kinetiq Health on the medical side of the cost. And we’re not able to do as much on the fully insured side, but I did want to see if, because we are still getting data on the fully insured stuff and we are able to negotiate differently with our fully insured carriers whether we were seeing an impact and we did see it was about a percent and a half to 2% higher than our self-funded book, but our fully insured book was still running at about four, four and a half percent, which still is a couple percent better than what we were seeing from the marketplace.
(24:32):
And I attribute that to just really our ability and understanding of what’s going on within our group and being able to talk to the underwriters and explain to an underwriter what really was going on with this ongoing claim, because I used to be one. Underwriters, I always said, overworked and underpaid, right? Because there’s a lot of responsibilities as an underwriter and trying to really dig in and understand how a risk can change. If you’re looking at, “Well, this person had $150,000 in claims last year, I’m going to assume they’re going to be $180,000 next year.” Well, if they don’t look at their diagnoses or they don’t look at the fact that they haven’t had a claim in three or four months, or maybe the diagnosis might indicate that, wow, this claim is pretty much closed, they’re not going to have another $180,000. If you could articulate that, explain that to the underwriter who can confirm it, then all of a sudden rather than needing a seven or 8% increase, he could probably get by with a 4% increase
Josh Schumacher (25:33):
So name of the game in evaluating ROI is, can that broker actually bend my trend numbers and contain my healthcare costs? And that’s how you evaluate the fee.
John Gause (25:43):
But that’s how I evaluate my brokers. What are you doing for me? What’d you do for me last year? How’d you help me with my cost side of it? I love the fact that you may be great at enrollment meetings. We love your people, we love the people that are servicing, my employees love you, but ultimately I need to understand my trend is going up by X number and what have you helped me? What have you done about it? And I should know what I’m paying, which I think a lot of employers do know what they’re paying now, but what am I getting in return for that? If I’m not getting lower trend than normal, I really have to question what am I paying for? Maybe I just want the service. Maybe I just want the enrollment stuff and going out and getting quotes.
Josh Schumacher (26:26):
To make this practical, I feel like that’s pretty, it feels common sense, right? It feels common sense that I should evaluate what I get for what I pay for. So let’s talk a little bit about in practice, why do you think that that’s not currently how it’s evaluated? And I guess how can we move to a place where that is how that decision is made organizationally?
John Gause (26:47):
If you look at where benefits healthcare costs that currently reside within most employers, it resides in human resources, which it should. I understand that. But really that kind of goes back and it certainly predates the cost of $30,000 annual cost for families. That started in HR because it really was an investment for an employer and it was looked at as part of compensation back when costs were $2,500 per family back in the ’70s and ’80s. And so that’s kind of where it’s at. Oftentimes they’re looking at this and they’re assuming that … And financial oversight has not always been there. Now some employers have been more progressive and they have a finance person sitting at the table. They bring them in and I think it’s important because someone’s got to be managing the P&L and that’s typically finance. And so if you have them in the room, you’re probably going to get more questions revolving, why are our costs going up?
(27:51):
I need to understand that. And sometimes those are uncomfortable conversations for a broker and some people just think, “Well, because we hired the wrong people or because this person had a claim.” Well, that’s fine. You’re going to have those situations. What have you done about what we have going on?
Josh Schumacher (28:06):
Yeah. What did you specifically do to manage our claims?
John Gause (28:08):
What’d you do to manage our cost? It was really good. Why am I looking at something at trend or higher than trend every year?
Josh Schumacher (28:15):
So to kind of bring us full circle here, our industry has changed a lot since the ’80s. It’s changed a lot since 2003 and what employers should be expecting from their broker and how they should be evaluating them has changed as well. What’s the main thing you want an employer, any leader that’s listening to this to walk away with, especially those that might be unsure about whether they should be making a change, whether they should be evaluating this differently?
John Gause (28:41):
The first thing people need to recognize is what trend represents. And if you’re spending a million bucks, a 7% trend is a lot of money. If you’re spending $10 million, it’s-
Josh Schumacher (28:52):
Even more
John Gause (28:53):
Money. It’s a lot more money. And if one consultant can deliver trend results in the three or 4% and another consultant is going to deliver trend results in the seven or 8%, you may be talking millions of dollars, certainly hundreds of thousands of dollars. So those are big decisions and I think you got to look at those and decide really where you want to go. And I think where a lot of employers get hung up is they truly believe because there are so many good salespeople in this industry that everybody’s giving them the same thing and we’re all pitching the same thing Apex can represent Anthem so is Broker B can represent Anthem Apex represents UnitedHealth. They can both go to the same places. I got the same population, what difference does it make? I like the guy I’m working with. They’ve done a pretty good job.
(29:45):
They’ve been with them for 10 years. I don’t think anybody’s really any different. So I think what it boils down to is believability and do you believe one firm can do something that another firm can’t do? And I think that’s where we get hung up a little bit. And that’s where employers, I think that’s where the missing the boat because there is truly a difference. And that difference is it’s not coincidental. It’s not by design. It’s not one out of every three years. And there’s a reason for it. And if they start peeling the onions back a little bit and look to see really why is someone better than someone else, what resources they might be bringing on the table that someone else is not, then they’re going to be able to determine that and see for themselves. I brought this up in some of our sales meetings.
(30:36):
Sometimes I feel like I’m like, an employer either believes us that we’re going to save them money or they just don’t like money. I hate to be so crest, but I mean, I know it. I’ve seen it. I’m looking at this stuff and there are lots of things we do and I see it a lot. I see a lot of employers overpaying today because they’re not using the levers they could use. And I’ve had people tell me this. In fact, the case we just picked up, the guy looked at me is like, “Well, if you’re actually performing 2.2%, you should have everybody in the market.” I said, “You’re right.”
Josh Schumacher (31:10):
Yeah. You either believe it’s possible to do better, you don’t believe it’s possible to do better or you don’t like money. I like that. So let me ask you this final question. If I’m an HR leader, a CFO or someone walking into work the Monday after this episode comes out, they’ve heard this, where do they start? What’s the first thing they can start to do to start breaking the cycle, taking a new approach to this conversation?
John Gause (31:30):
Well, if they want to fast forward, they could just hire us. But probably I don’t think they want to do that. If they want to evaluate this and what I’d tell my team, the same boat, I’d say, look, I don’t want to accept the status quo anymore and I want to know why are our costs going up. If somebody was pitching me and I was talking to Stephanie in HR, I’d say, “Hey, listen, bring our guy in and find out what … Talk to him about our increases and ask him what he’s doing about it. And I’d want to know. And if you don’t hear what you like, then call some other people and ask them how they do it. We got to get a better story because I don’t want to accept the status quo in 78% a year. It’s too expensive.”
Josh Schumacher (32:14):
I think I like something that you’ve said to our team over and over again, which is listen and the answers that they give you will speak for themselves. And so I think that really speaks to just going in there, starting to ask the right questions, seeing what answers you get, and hopefully driving a new path
John Gause (32:31):
Forward. John- Evaluate those answers. Yeah.
Josh Schumacher (32:34):
Thanks for joining me, John. It was an honor having you on the podcast.
John Gause (32:37):
Thanks.
Josh Schumacher (32:37):
Remember, you don’t have to keep repeating the same outcomes. You are built for better and we are here to help you see how you can Break. The. Cycle.. Thanks for joining us for this episode. For more on how to break free from the cycle of rising costs and painful renewals, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
